09:22
Berikut adalah terjemahan transkrip yang ditulis Helen Ang tentang kenyataan Karpal Singh:
Ok, I think we can start.
(Ok, saya fikir kita boleh mula).
The Muslim Lawyers Association has threatened the Bar Council for its support given to The Herald in the Allah issue.
(Persatuan Peguam-Peguam Muslim telah mengugut Persatuan Peguam di atas sokongan yang diberikan olehnya kepada The Herald dalam isu Allah.)
The President of the Muslim Lawyers Association, Zainul Rijal Abu Bakar, says that the association will not hesitate to take further action.
(Presiden Persatuan Peguam-Peguam Muslim, Zainul Rijal Abu Bakar, berkata bahawa persatuan itu tidak akan teragak-agak untuk mengambil tindakan lanjut.)
This is an idle threat, unwarranted, and one which should not have been uttered by the President of the Muslim Lawyers Association.
(Ini adalah satu ugutan senyap, tidak berasas, dan suatu yang tidak sepatutnya dituturkan oleh Presiden Persatuan Peguam-Peguam Muslim.)
The Muslim Lawyers Association is a very divisive board.
(Persatuan Peguam-Peguam Muslim adalah sebuah badan yang sangat memecah-belah.)
It is the Bar Council which represents lawyers in the country, and that includes all lawyers, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Christians, everybody.
(Persatuan Peguam yang mewakili peguam-peguam dalam negara ini, dan ini merangkumi semua peguam, peguam-peguam Muslim, peguam-peguam Hindu, peguam-peguam Buddha, peguam-peguam Kristian, semua sekali.)
In fact, the registration of the Muslim Lawyers Association, if at all it has been registered, ought to be cancelled.
(Malah, pendaftaran Persatuan Peguam-Peguam Muslim, itupun sekiranya ia telah didaftarkan, mestilah dibatalkan.)
The government cannot allow associations which operate on racial lines, which operate on religious lines, in this case it is religious line, Muslims.
(Kerajaan tidak boleh membenarkan pertubuhan-pertubuhan yang bergerak di atas garis perkauman, yang bergerak di atas garis keagamaan, di dalam kes ini ia adalah garis keagamaan, orang-orang Islam.)
It is a very serious matter, because Muslim lawyers can be allowed to form a separate association, with the Bar Council think they represent them, and we do not want the position where others may want to have Hindus Lawyers Association, Buddhist Lawyers Association, which of course will not happen, it is just somehow rather that the Muslim lawyers have decided to form their own association.
(Ini adalah satu perkara yang sangat serius, sebab peguam-peguam Muslim boleh dibenarkan untuk menubuhkan sebuah persatuan yang berasingan, dengan Persatuan Peguam fikir ia mewakili mereka, dan kita tidak mahu kedudukan di mana orang-orang lain mungkin hendak mewujudkan Persatuan Peguam-Peguam Hindu, Persatuan Peguam-Peguam Buddha, yang memang tidak akan berlaku, hanya entah bagaimana peguam-peguam Muslim telah memutuskan untuk menubuhkan persatuan mereka sendiri.)
In fact most Muslim lawyers do not support the Muslim Lawyers Association, it is just a handful, handful of troublemakers.
(Malah kebanyakan peguam Muslim tidak menyokong Persatuan Peguam-Peguam Muslim, hanya sebahagian kecil, sebahagian kecil pembuat kacau.)
And I hope that serious action will be taken against the threat by the President of the Muslim Lawyers Association to the Bar Council, what they did mean when they said they will not hesitate to take further action, I think it is criminal intimidation here
(Dan saya berharap agar tindakan serius akan dikenakan ke atas ugutan yang dibuat oleh Presiden Persatuan Peguam-Peguam Muslim kepada Persatuan Peguam, apa yang mereka maksudkan bila mereka berkata mereka tidak akan teragak-agak untuk mengambil tindakan lanjut, saya fikir ia adalah ugutan jenayah di sini.)
I call upon the Bar Council to lodge a police report so that necessary action can be taken against this so-called president of this so-called association.
(Saya menggesa Persatuan Peguam membuat satu laporan polis bagi membolehkan tindakan sewajarnya diambil ke atas presiden persatuan ini.)
Are there any question on this, because I think this is a deliberate attempt to divide lawyers in the country?
(Adakah terdapat apa-apa soalan mengenai perkara ini, kerana saya fikir ini adalah satu cubaan terancang untuk memecahbelahkan peguam-peguam dalam negara ini?)
Question: How many lawyers in the Bar Council?
(Soalan: Berapa ramai peguam dalam Persatuan Peguam)
Answer: In the Bar Council, I think they are reaching nearly 13,000.
(Jawapan: Dalam Persatuan Peguam, saya fikir mereka mencapai hampir 13,000.)
Question: When was this Muslim Lawyers Association formed?
(Soalan: Bila Persatuan Peguam-Peguam Muslim ini ditubuhkan?)
Answer: This was formed somewhere rather I think at the late 1980s, late 1980s.
(Jawapan: Ia ditubuhkan sekitar saya fikir penghujung 1980-an.)
Question: How many members are in their association?
(Soalan: Berapa ramai ahli dalam persatuan mereka)
Answer: I think you should ask them how many members they have.
(Jawapan: Saya fikir kamu perlu tanya mereka berapa ramai ahli mereka ada.)
Question: A handful only?
(Soalan: Sebahagian kecil sahaja?)
Answer: I think a handful of troublemakers. Very unbecoming of these lawyers to form such an association.
(Jawapan: Saya fikir sebahagian kecil pembuat kacau. Sangat tidak wajar bagi peguam-peguam ini untuk menubuhkan sebuah persatuan begini.)
Question: Is there a worry that this type of association can undermine the Bar Council, is there a worry there?
(Soalan: Adakah terdapat satu kebimbangan bahawa persatuan begini boleh menjejaskan Persatuan Peguam, adakah terdapat satu kebimbangan di sini?)
Answer: It could, of course, as I said earlier, you know. Operating along religious, racial lines, is a very dangerous thing in a multi-racial and a multi-religious society like ours. I think the time has come perhaps for all racial parties to be deregistered, that will include unfortunately even PAS. We have to be practical, we have to be practical, if we want a united country then we must have parties which are multi-racial.
(Jawapan: Ia boleh, memang, seperti saya katakan sebelum ini. Bergerak di atas garis-garis keagamaan, perkauman, adalah satu perkara yang sangat membahayakan di dalam sebuah masyarakat berbilang kaum dan berbilang agama seperti masyarakat kita. Saya fikir masanya mungkin sudah tiba bagi semua parti perkauman untuk dibatalkan pendaftarannya, ini malangnya merangkumi PAS juga. Kita perlu bersikap praktikal, kita perlu bersikap praktikal, jika kita mahu sebuah negara yang bersatu-padu maka kita mesti mempunyai parti-parti yang berbilang kaum.)
Question: Were you once with the Bar Council?
(Soalan: Adakah kamu pernah bersama Persatuan Peguam?)
Answer: Yes, I was in the Bar Council in the 1970s until I protested against the ESCAR, the Essential Security Cases Regulations.
(Jawapan: Ya, saya berada di dalam Persatuan Peguam pada 1970-an sehingga saya membuat protes kepada ESCAR, the Essential Security Cases Regulations.)
Question: Penang?
(Soalan: Pulau Pinang?)
Answer: No, I was a member from Kedah. Oh no, sorry, I was elected at that time from the floor. I was a member from Kedah earlier.
(Jawapan: Bukan, saya adalah seorang ahli dari Kedah. Oh tidak, maaf, saya telah dipilih pada waktu itu dari lantai, saya adalah seorang ahli dari Kedah sebelum itu.)
Question: Now?
(Soalan: Sekarang?)
Answer: And what had happened then was that Legal Profession Act was amended to exclude me from the Bar Council, deliberately done for the purpose, an amendment was brought to the Legal Profession Act to disallow the members of, rather elected representatives, which is Members of Parliament and State Assemblymen, I was State Assemblyman at that time, from holding office in the Bar Council, so I was legislated out of the Bar Council.
(Jawapan: Dan apa yang berlaku selepas itu ialah Akta Profesion Guaman telah dipinda bagi mengeluarkan saya dari Persatuan Peguam, dibuat khusus untuk tujuan itu, satu pindaan telah dibuat ke atas Akta Profesion Guaman bagi menghalang ahli-ahli, sebenarnya wakil-wakil rakyat yang dipilih, iaitu Ahli-Ahli Parlimen dan Ahli-Ahli Dewan Undangan Negeri, saya adalah Ahli Dewan Undangan Negeri pada waktu itu, dari memegang jawatan dalam Persatuan Peguam, jadi saya telah ditendang keluar dari Persatuan Peguam secara perundangan.)
Question: Until now?
(Soalan: Hingga sekarang?)
Answer: Yes, the amendment is still there.
(Jawapan: Ya, pindaan itu masih di situ.)
Question: You said earlier that any association formed with the religious line is dangerous for the country, how about PAS?
(Soalan: Kamu menyatakan sebelum ini bahawa mana-mana pertubuhan yang bergerak di atas garis keagamaan adalah membahayakan kepada negara, bagaimana dengan PAS?)
Answer: That was what I said, unfortunately includes PAS.
(Jawapan: Itulah yang saya katakan pun, malangnya merangkumi PAS.)
Question: So are you suggesting that…
(Soalan: Adakah kamu bermaksud bahawa…)
Answer: I didn’t say that, I called it like this, yes.
(Jawapan: Saya tidak berkata begitu, saya panggil ia seperti ini, ya.)
Question: So you were saying even PAS…
(Soalan: Jadi kamu berkata walaupun PAS…)
Answer: Even PAS I think should open its door to all races.
(Jawapan: Walaupun PAS saya fikir perlu membuka pintunya kepada semua kaum.)
Question: But PAS will not be happy with your statement, they are part of your Pakatan Rakyat, right?
(Soalan: Tetapi PAS tidak akan gembira dengan kenyataan kamu, mereka adalah sebahagian daripada Pakatan Rakyat kamu, bukan?)
Answer: They may be part of the Pakatan Rakyat but it does not mean we cannot say things which are in the interest of the country.
(Jawapan: Mereka mungkin sebahagian daripada Pakatan Rakyat tetapi ini tidak bererti kita tidak boleh memperkatakan perkara-perkara yang berada di dalam kepentingan negara.)
Question: Is there any complaint to the…
(Soalan: Adakah terdapat apa-apa komplen terhadap…)
Answer: I think PAS already have some sort of non-Muslim, there are some arrangement, isn’t it? If I am not mistaken, the supporters group or something, I think they do have, although a handful, but they are not members of PAS, not direct members. Ban all racial political parties, what’s the problem?
(Jawapan: Saya fikir PAS telah mempunyai satu jenis bukan Islam, ada susunan, bukan begitu? Jika saya tidak silap, kumpulan penyokong-penyokong atau sesuatu, saya fikir mereka ada, walaupun sebahagian kecil, tetapi mereka bukan ahli-ahli PAS, bukan ahli-ahli terus. Haramkan semua parti politik perkauman, apa masalah?)
Question: But any conflict with this freedom of expression in the Constitution?
(Soalan: Tetapi apa-apa konflik dengan kebebasan bersuara dalam Perlembagaan?)
Answer: I don’t think so, in fact, on the other hand, I think it enhances the concept of, you know, unity, on the people.
(Jawapan: Saya tidak fikir begitu, malah, sebaliknya, saya fikir ia meningkatkan lagi konsep, kamu tahu, kesatuan, pada rakyat.)
Question: Ban all racial political parties?
(Soalan: Haramkan semua parti politik perkauman?)
Answer: Yes, ban all racial political parties.
(Jawapan: Ya, haramkan semua parti politik perkauman.)
Question: Umno?
(Soalan: Umno?)
Answer: Ya, ya, I say Umno, MCA, of course Gerakan is spared, that does not make any difference.
(Jawapan: Ya, ya, saya kata UMNO, MCA, Gerakan memang terkecuali, ia tidak membawa apa-apa perbezaan.)
Question: You were saying ban all racial political parties or ban all racial associations and groups?
(Soalan: Kamu menyatakan haramkan semua parti politik perkauman atau haramkan semua persatuan dan kumpulan perkauman?)
Answer: I am talking about political parties and of course associations like the Muslim Lawyers Association and so forth.
(Jawapan: Saya bercakap mengenai parti-parti politik dan juga persatuan-persatuan seperti Persatuan Peguam-Peguam Muslim dan sebagainya.)
Question: Professional groups?
(Soalan: Kumpulan-kumpulan profesional?)
Answer: Professionals are all, you know, ought to be multi-racial. There is no problem there, the medical, I think include all, otherwise we will have Muslim Doctors Association, and we might need to have, to allow precedents like this, it is a very serious matter the government has to look at, otherwise I think it is a serious setback, you know, to ultimate unity among the people in the country.
(Jawapan: Profesional-profesional semuanya, kamu tahu, mestilah berbilang kaum. Tiada masalah di sana, kumpulan perubatan, saya fikir termasuk semua, jika tidak kita akan ada Persatuan Doktor-Doktor Muslim, dan kita mungkin perlu ada, untuk benarkan duluan-duluan seperti ini, ia adalah satu perkara yang sangat serius kerajaan mesti lihat, jika tidak saya fikir ia adalah satu ancaman serius kepada, awak tahu, perpaduan di kalangan rakyat dalam negara ini.)
Question: You have no front in making such a statement?
(Soalan: Kamu tiada muslihat dalam membuat kenyataan ini?)
Answer: No front.
(Jawapan: Tiada muslihat.)
Question: Is that an unwarranted call?
(Soalan: Adakah itu satu seruan yang tidak berasas?)
Answer: I think a warranted call.
(Jawapan: Saya fikir satu seruan yang berasas.)
Question: You don’t see any repercussion from your statement?
(Soalan: Kamu tidak lihat satu kesan negatif dari kenyataan kamu?)
Answer: What repercussion can there be?
(Jawapan: Apa kesan negatif yang boleh timbul?)
Question: What is the danger when you say that party or professional they are on the racial line or religious line…
(Soalan: Apa bahaya bila kamu berkata bahawa parti atau profesional mereka bergerak atas garis perkauman atau garis keagamaan…)
Answer: Even Mahathir is on record as stating that ultimately there should be no racial political parties in the country, ultimately, he had said that.
(Jawapan: Mahathir sendiri pernah direkodkan sebagai berkata bahawa pada akhirnya hendaklah tidak ada parti-parti politik perkauman dalam negara ini, pada akhirnya, dia berkata begitu.)
Question: When, about when he said that?
(Soalan: Bila, lebih kurang bila dia berkata begitu?)
Long ago, when he was a Prime Minister, it was quoted in the Asiaweek.
(Jawapan: Lama dahulu, bila dia seorang Perdana Menteri, ia telah dipetik dalam Asiaweek.)
Question: Where was the danger, I mean, having so long, all the while, where was the danger behind?
(Soalan: Di mana bahaya, maksud saya, setelah begitu lama, selama ini, di mana bahaya sebelum ini?)
Answer: But having been too long doesn’t mean we can’t do it. Something must be done. It should have been done long ago. It is not too late. Especially a call like this, that they will take further action, what is all these?
(Jawapan: Tetapi setelah begitu lama tidak bermakna kita tidak boleh buat ia. Sesuatu mesti dilakukan. Sepatutnya ia telah dibuat lama dahulu. Masih belum terlambat. Khasnya satu seruan seperti ini, bahawa mereka akan mengambil tindakan lanjut, apa semua ini?)
Question: You are ascribing this for political parties and professional associations like the Muslim Lawyers Association?
(Soalan: Kamu menyatakan ini untuk parti-parti politik dan persatuan-persatuan profesional?)
Answer: Yes, yes. I think it is all wrong.
(Jawapan: Ya, ya. Saya fikir semua itu salah.)
Question: How would you comment that this kind of statement and on going things happened just as Prime Minister Najib returned from the World Islamic Economic Forum in London where he espoused the moderation and defended himself by saying that Malaysia is all for moderation when he was asked by CNN about the Allah issue and other fundamentalists, is there an irony there?
(Soalan: Bagaimana kamu akan komen bahawa kenyataan begini dan perkara-perkara yang sedang terjadi berlaku sejurus Perdana Menteri Najib kembali dari Forum Ekonomi Islam Dunia di London di mana beliau mendukung kesederhanaan dan mempertahankan diri dengan menyatakan Malaysia mendukung kesederhanaan bila bila beliau ditanya oleh CNN mengenai isu Allah dan fundamentalis-fundamentalis lain, apakah ada ironi di situ?)
Answer: Of course, I mean internationally, you know, he speaks different from what he does when he is here, that’s why the British Prime Minister praised him, “it’s a moderate Islamic government and therefore, you know, something which should be admired”.
(Jawapan: Memang, maksud saya di peringkat antarabangsa, awak tahu, beliau bercakap berbeza dari apa yang beliau buat bila beliau di sini. Sebab itu Perdana Menteri British memuji beliau, “ia adalah sebuah kerajaan Islam sederhana dan oleh kerana itu, awak tahu, sesuatu yang perlu disanjung”.)
Question: Your call to ban all religious and racial political parties, will it go against the freedom of association?
(Soalan: Seruan kamu untuk mengharamkan semua parti politik keagamaan dan perkauman, tidakkah ia bertentangan dengan kebebasan berpersatuan?)
Answer: Freedom of association does not mean that you can have associations which are divisive, I think there must be some limit to, you know, what freedom of association can constitute.
(Jawapan: Kebebasan berpersatuan tidak bererti anda boleh mempunyai persatuan-persatuan yang membawa perpecahan, saya fikir di sana mesti terdapat beberapa batasan ke atas, awak tahu, apa kebebasan berpersatuan boleh buat.)
If there is no more question on this then the Sungai Limau by-election.
(Jika tiada soalan lagi untuk ini maka pilihan raya kecil Sungai Limau.)
It was a clear-cut victory for PAS.
(Ia adalah satu kemenangan nyata bagi PAS.)
Reduction in the majority does not mean that PAS has lost support.
(Penurunan dalam majoriti tidak bermakna yang PAS telah kehilangan sokongan.)
What has to be taken into account is that millions which were virtually spent by the Barisan there, the machinery the Barisan used in the by-election, unlike a general election, it is different, here everything is focused on one small constituency, certainly a slap in the face for Mukhriz and Mahathir Mohamad and I hope Dr Mahathir Mohamad, after the loss of the Vice-Presidency by his son and now the loss of Sungai Limau with his son as the Menteri Besar there, Dr Mahathir will stop from further interfering in the political affairs of the country.
(Apa yang perlu diambil kira ialah jutaan yang telah dibelanjakan oleh Barisan di sana, jentera Barisan gunakan dalam pilihan raya kecil, tidak seperti pilihan raya umum, ia adalah berbeza, di sini semuanya difokuskan kepada sebuah kawasan kecil, semestinya satu tamparan di muka Mukhriz dan Mahathir Mohamad dan saya harap Dr Mahathir Mohamad, selepas kekalahan jawatan Naib Presiden oleh anak beliau dan sekarang kehilangan Sungai Limau dengan anak beliau sebagai Menteri Besar di sana, Dr Mahathir akan berhenti dari terus campur-tangan dalam urusan-urusan politik negara ini.
It is a very short one on that one, any question on that?
(Sangat ringkas mengenai hal ini, ada soalan mengenainya?)
Question: If you say that all political parties should be deregistered then PAS will be deregistered and there won’t be Sungai Limau by-election?
(Soalan: Jika kamu menyatakan bahawa semua parti politik perlu dibatalkan pendaftarannya maka PAS akan dibatalkan pendaftarannya maka tidak akan ada pilihan raya kecil Sungai Limau?)
Answer: No, no, change your race, open your door to other races and that is the end of it, you can save yourself. See, we can’t perpetuate racial political party, can’t go on forever, we are a multi-religious, multi-racial country, which means you must have multi-racial, you know, political parties, you cannot have racial political parties in multi-racial society, should not be allowed, we are driving the different races further apart instead of trying to get them closer together to unite them.
(Jawapan: Bukan, bukan, tukar kaum kamu, buka pintu kamu kepada kaum-kaum lain dan tamatlah cerita, kamu boleh selamatkan diri kamu. Lihat, kita tidak boleh memanjangkan parti politik perkauman, tidak boleh begini selama-lamanya, kita adalah sebuah negara berbilang agama, berbilang kaum, yang bermakna kamu mesti ada parti-parti politik, kamu tahu, berbilang kaum, kamu tidak boleh ada parti-parti politik perkauman dalam masyarakat berbilang kaum, tidak boleh dibenarkan, kita semakin menjauhkan pelbagai kaum di sebalik cuba mendekatkan mereka untuk menyatukan mereka.)
Question: If that is the case then may be there will be no Chinese school, no Indian school…
(Soalan: Jika ini keadaannya maka mungkin tidak akan ada sekolah Cina, sekolah India…)
Answer: I am talking about political parties.
(Jawapan: Saya bercakap tentang parti-parti politik)
Question: When you said there is no racial, meaning there is no Hakka, no Buddhist Association…
(Soalan: Bila kamu menyatakan tiada perkauman, maksudnya tiada Persatuan Hakka, Buddha…)
Answer: I am talking about political parties.
(Jawapan: Saya bercakap tentang parti-parti politik)
Question: So, it is just political party and professional association?
(Soalan: Jadi, hanya parti politik dan persatuan profesional?)
Answer: Please don’t misunderstand me, I am talking about political parties.
(Jawapan: Tolong jangan salah faham saya, saya bercakap tentang parti-parti politik.)
Question: It is just political party and professional association?
(Soalan: Hanya parti politik dan persatuan profesional?)
Answer: Yes, and of course professional association, I think it is wrong.
(Jawapan: Ya, dan juga persatuan profesional, saya fikir salah.)
Question: But if you implement it, what PAS is going to do? What do you think PAS will do? I mean they are a political party, their registration and all that, I mean they are religious, right? And if they are going to be deregistered then what are they going to do?
(Soalan: Tetapi jika kamu melaksanakannya, apa PAS akan buat? Apa kamu fikir PAS akan buat? Maksud saya mereka adalah sebuah parti politik, pendaftaran mereka dan sebagainya, maksud saya mereka adalah keagamaan, bukan? Dan jika mereka akan dibatalkan pendaftaran mereka maka apa mereka akan buat?)
Answer: Don’t get deregistered, I mean, get others, open your door to the other races, so what is the problem? You are already having, you know, PAS Supporters non-Muslims there, which in fact appears to be a step towards there.
(Jawapan: Jangan biar dibatalkan pendaftaran, maksud saya, dapatkan orang-orang lain, buka pintu kamu kepada kaum-kaum lain, jadi apa masalah? Kamu sudah ada, kamu tahu, Penyokong-Penyokong PAS bukan Muslim di sana, yang kelihatan sebagai satu langkah ke arah itu.) Sumber : Heleng Ang
Sumber: NOVANDRI
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